Massive in 2020, purpose, and doing business during a global pandemic

Rene, Prem and Lindsay

Massive’s Partners, Linz and René, discuss the changes Massive has gone through in 2020, urgency of purpose and the challenges of doing business in a global pandemic.

  • Rene Thomas, Partner + Chief Creative Officer at Media Media

    René Thomas

    Partner + Executive Creative Director

  • Lindsay Smith, Founder and CEO at Massive Media

    Lindsay Smith

    Founder + CEO

  • Prem Sai Ramani, Content Strategist at Massive

    Prem Sai Ramani

    Content Strategist

We covered a lot of ground in today’s podcast. Below you’ll find sources to some of the ideas and concepts we discussed during the show.

Simon Sinek:

Jim Collins:

Interviewer: Prem Sai Ramani (Prem)
Interviewee: René Thomas (René)
Interviewee: Lindsay Smith (Linz)
Date of Interview: Sept 20th, 2020

PREM: We are recording now.

LINZ: We are recording.

RENE: So, it’s our podcast weekends, we can swear.

LINZ: Can we? Are there any rules, like when we put it out on the internet, will they block it?

PREM: It’s fine, you can swear. It just it depends on the audience. But I don’t think you want kids listening to this anyway because they don’t have any money to spend.

LINZ: And they fall asleep like this is boring

RENE: Way to play the long game. We want the next Mark Zuckerberg 15 years.

INTRO: Hey, you’re listening to Massive Talks, an informal podcast where we talk about topics that are important to us and the overlap between digital, culture and creative.

I’m not sure what this is going to be yet. I don’t even know if the name is solid. But what I do know is that we’re interested in having interesting conversations, both amongst ourselves, and with others. Today, we talk about getting closer to our Why, COVID-19 and the launch of our new website.

PREM: Hello, I’m your Host, Prem, and I’m also the Content Strategist here at Massive. A lot’s changed in the past couple of months, both for Massive, and for the entire world. We have a new website. We have some new products, divisions, even outposts. And you might be wondering, what’s all this about? I thought we could take some time today and sit down with…

LINZ: I’m Lindsay Smith, I am the CEO and Founder of Massive Media. And, I’m a serial entrepreneur.

PREM: And also…

RENE: Hey, I’m René. I am the Executive Creative Director here at Massive. And I’ve been a Partner here as well for four years.

PREM: To chat about what’s been going on for the past couple of years at Massive and what’s brand new. If you’re new to massive welcome. We hope this gives you a good sense of what we do and what we care about. But without further ado, let’s get started. Hello.

PREM: Testing, one, two, three. I’m just going to keep this going just to see that it’s working, OK? Why are we sitting around the table today?

LINZ: Well, I’m really excited because we’re launching our new website.

RENE: It’s been a long time coming.

PREM: Yeah, OK, that’s exciting news. Why are you launching a new website?

RENE: The old one was… old.

PREM: You don’t say.

LINZ: You know, I think it’s part of our job is to stay on top of the latest trends to present ourselves at the forward. People come to us to reimagine who they are, to help them keep up with the speed of culture. And so naturally, we have to do the same thing. And I think that’s one thing that our team really does, led by René the creative side.

RENE: A lot’s changed since we last launched the new website. We have a lot of people on the team. We’ve launched a lot of new projects, I think a lot of our systems… I think as a creative in general and as a creative agency, you’re always kind of tired of what you did six months ago, and you’re always looking to find a more accurate representation of what you can do because you’re wanting to attract the right type of clients and people who are looking for what you can do.

PREM: Let’s talk about what’s changed and what is what does massive 20, 20 look like right now?

LINZ: I’d say the website reflects a maturity that we’ve gone through, a level of sophistication that massive has gone through. And I think that we were already on this journey before COVID. What I’m seeing from our team and that’s maturing as an organization is being far more strategic. That has been brought in by actually introducing that as a dedicated role on our team. And then it’s also been brought into our culture most recently with the fact that we are rolling out, again, I hate this word institutionalized, but I can’t figure out a better word for it. But we’re institutionalizing strategy in every role that we have.

PREM: Concretizing, maybe?

RENE: From the copywriter…

LINZ: I don’t know what that word means, but I’m assuming it means something like institutionalizing.

PREM: Solidifying, maybe.

RENE: There we are.

LINZ: And I think that it’s about it’s about learning that, like, we really strive to have our team understand that we’re not just setting up like we’ve developed great processes for getting to building efficient projects and getting to a great solution and developing exceptional creative. And we’re great at storytelling.

And when I say we I’m really taking credit for everything you guys do. So that’s great. Thanks, guys. But I think that we’re really, really good at that.

But one thing that we were realizing as an organization is how important it is to instil within each team member how to think strategically in their role in context of the projects they’re working on and the clients that they’re working with. People will see, I think, a strategic approach to Massive. I think that when you first start off as a company, you’re just taking work wherever you can. You’re spread in a lot of ways. And we’ve really we’ve really fine tuned and honed in to what we’re really good at.

PREM: I think it speaks to maybe the more agile approach that a lot of organizations are going towards just in the face of kind of the world and the digital environment that’s that’s going on right now. I’m, I’m curious about… you mentioned when you’re just starting out, you get to you basically take all the work that you can get. Now that you’re at a bit more of a mature stage, what kind of work are you looking to get into? What are the projects that make you really passionate and want to jump in and help out?

RENE: It’s less about a specific kind of organization as much as the people behind it. I think we’re looking… it’s so cliche, but we are looking for courageous organizations that really want to take a stance, and know who they are and who they aren’t. They have something to say and they want to say it with clarity, and they want to rally people behind a strong organization Why.

And this is where we get really excited about about it, is when they actually have a net positive effect on the world. So we’re looking for organizations with purpose that maybe need some help in terms of clarifying, and then are looking for ways to rally and align their users, customers, or their audiences behind that purpose and bring them along on that journey.

PREM: What’s Massive’s organizational Why? What is driving the work that you guys do today… that we do today?

LINZ: Yeah, and I think that there’s there’s the aspirational why that we have in our own brand ethos. And then there’s the why of what we do today. And I think that today, as Rene has pointed out, today we’re looking the rebels in the organization that want to propel their industries forward. And they’re looking for a strong partner to help to align with them, to help get their organization there. We do really, really well when we’ve got partners that have those cheerleaders internally, and we’re bringing in a whole a whole ship along with it.

But if we were to actually back up and go, like, why did we start massive? What was the reason for that? The aspirational Why when I sat back was to build a communications engine–and, I don’t mean communications from the sense of like PR or media. I mean communications from a messaging and storytelling–to get behind companies that actually have the power to change the world. And I know that’s so cliche, and I know this sounds like a millennial thing. And I’m just on the cusp… I’m not quite a millennial, but I sure try to be, especially as I get older, I just want to pretend.

But I think that for us, it’s like there’s a reason why it’s a cliché. It’s because it’s in the hearts and minds of so many people, culturally. We see that there are so many problems in the world today that need to be solved. And there’s all of these companies with great ideas that are trying to solve those problems. Massive is being designed as an elite team of astronauts from a storytelling perspective, and from a digital perspective, that can help those companies achieve their vision to actually make change in the world in a positive way.

And sometimes that plays out. And like, we’ve worked with think-tanks, we’ve worked with nonprofits, but other times it plays out with just a really good product idea. It’s companies that are taking that approach and going, “how can we think about the world differently?”, And we need a partner that could help get us there and get that message across. So that’s that’s really why we exist and what gets us most excited.

RENE: We often say the ideas that are going to save the world already exist. You don’t need to often times find those ideas more, come up with them. It’s more about giving those ideas, legs and culture and then allowing them to thrive because you’re allowing them to be easily adopted, whether they’re a new technology or a campaign or what have you. So to Lindsay’s point, I think the real reason we got into this game was to find those solutions that are going to solve the world’s biggest problems and then put our creative weight behind it and really help them thrive.

LINZ: I think one thing, and sorry Prem, I know you’re going to ask this question next, but I’m you know, I sometimes sit on the journalism side of it, so I’m going to steal your question.And that is the fact that, like, why, why what’s happened through COVID that is motivated us to launch the new website. And why am I asking your question? I’m going to let you do it.

PREM: That’s actually not where my question was going.

LINZ: Where’s your question going?

PREM: I Know! I’m throwing you curveballs.

LINZ: You are throwing me here.

PREM: I’m curious about that qualification process. You know, you you want to work with these people with big ideas that are about to change the world. What do those companies look like? What are what are characteristics that you notice that you say, oh, these are the people that like, yeah, we want these people on our portfolio.

LINZ: Right. That’s a great question.

PREM: I know, thank you.

RENE: René and I always often talk about “courageous vulnerability”. It’s something that we’ve picked up from our mentors over the years. It’s people that have a vision of what they want to achieve, and are courageous enough to go after that vision with also incredible vulnerability. So we look for people that are like this when we look for our team, too. It’s actually part of our cultural values is going.  If you want to achieve something, you have to have exceptional communication just as a team in order to operate. So we look for people that not only have, OK, I’ve got the vision, but they also have those soft skills and the means to be able to achieve what they need to achieve. Because if they don’t have those founding those foundational elements or those foundational pieces, we’re not going to get as far.

RENE: Yeah, I think we look for change makers within an organizations, and organizations that are willing to dig deep and do the hard work that’s needed for change. So, they have to have to want change enough to take a really hard look at themselves, and maybe their product offering, and maybe a lot of things that have been in existence for a long time, and then kill their darlings, you know, to take a writing term, ask the tough questions.

Yeah. And if you don’t do that, then we’re likely not the right agency for you. which isn’t meant to be exclusive or anything. It’s just, that’s when our work shines most, is when we partner with organizations that really want that, and are willing to go to those places.

LINZ: And the ones that want to take the time as well. Like, you know, in our earlier years, we really saw that we would you know, you take on clients and you’re like, OK, well, we’ve come up, we’ve done this research and we’ve got this strategy in place. And then you get a CEO and that’s just like, well, I want it to be blue because I like that colour. I mean, that’s a really, you know, oversimplified example.

RENE: And blue is a great colour.

LINZ: Blue is a great colour. It’s actually my favourite colour. So, you know, all the power to that CEO. But aside from that, what we’re looking for is like teams that are our understand strategy, and understand the importance of using quantitative and qualitative data in order to get the right messaging. In order to get to the right creative, in order to take that journey, to ensure that we’re just not when we’re creating something, we’re not creating it for ourselves.

Rene, I love the way you say this all the time. These are your words–we’re not creating it for ourselves. We’re not creating it for our clients. We’re creating for the customers or clients of our clients. So that’s our job to shepherd that.  This the job of the strategist and our team, is to shepherd that throughout it. And unfortunately, there’s a lot of companies out there that don’t know that they don’t haven’t reached that level of sophistication yet. And where we really shine is when a company allows us to do that with them, so that we can truly target messaging and target our stories and develop our our materials for the audiences that are actually going to be… I want to say ingesting, but it sounds like they’re eating it.

PREM: Consuming…

LINZ: That still sounds like eating, but you know what I mean.

PREM: Umm..speaking of courageous vulnerability and killing your darlings, in the past couple of months, you’ve almost been forced to do that with the whole world shutting down from a global pandemic. I’m going to talk about how COVID has affected Massive. And you know what? What were some of the things that you struggled with right as the pandemic was was starting?

LINZ: Hmm. We struggled with a lot! Having our revenues drop within a week of, you know, down 50 percent… that was a really scary time those first two weeks. I honestly, other than going through, you know, death and divorce, I think that those two weeks were probably the hardest two weeks I’ve personally endured in a long time. And it’s just because everything is getting ripped out from under you and you have no… you have no certainty.

The biggest pain point for us was also just the idea of, of losing our team…like we’ve worked… So we started Massive eight years ago, and it’s taken every piece of foundation that we’ve built… there’s just been a lot of foundational building and a lot of going in one direction, and then backing up and realizing there’s a better path to take and taking that. It’s been it’s been a very iterative approach. And coming into January and February, I feel like Rene and I as a partnership, as we’ve been partners for four years now, we’d really hit our stride and built a really strong foundation for the direction that we knew we wanted to go in. And ,we had a lot of clarity on that.

So to have, you know, all of a sudden, we moved into this new office space was four thousand square feet and three and some-odd floors, and added a few new people to the team. And so we were we were feeling really good.

PREM: You’re just hitting you’re hitting your speed and then someone just like pump the brakes.

LINZ: That was really interesting, right? Because all of a sudden, I just remember Rene turning to me and going like, “so are you OK with living out of a tent if we have to?”.

PREM: Always the pragmatist.

RENE: I was like like camping.

LINZ: He loves camping. So for him, he was like, this could be fun.

RENE: This was pre-COVID. That’s the weird part.

LINZ: No, it wasn’t…Yeah. Kidding aside, I mean, it was just a it was a really scary time thinking that we might have to lay off our whole team and we had worked so hard to build it to this point. So that was that was difficult.

RENE: I think we we often.. you spend so many years trying to build a tool kit so that you can manipulate a situation so you don’t have to make those sort of decisions right? Where you have to lay off a team member, or so you’re a little more resilient in the face of these kind of like economic downturns and that sort of thing. You think you’ve got it figured out, and then a global pandemic hits you and you realize how helpless you are and you’re just on the receiving end like everyone, like all of us. And I think that was the hardest part, was the helplessness of it all.

LINZ: Yeah. And I mean, in all fairness, like we talk about risk assessment, I was prepared for us, like… we could have gone through a loss at that point of like 30 percent drop for months at a time. And we would have been able to finagle our way through it. But what we quickly realized was like, holy crap, now it’s 50 percent immediately, no planning time. And then it’s going to be even more for the months coming into it.

PREM: I think that’s something that everybody is feeling right now. No one could have predicted just such a hard stop. And both personally and on a corporate level, everybody doesn’t really know what to do. But you guys decided to launch a brand new website to new divisions, some outposts and a product.

LINZ:You know, we did, didn’t we?

RENE: When you put it like that, Prem, it just sounds crazy.

PREM: It is a little crazy! So, walk me through that. I mean, you’re you’re looking at 50 percent drop in revenue. You’re like, maybe we can’t even keep our team. But, I think when most people would have tried to U-turn or hold back, you guys kind of press the gas and went full speed ahead. Why?

RENE: I think we’re big believers in momentum and movement. And when you stop moving, it gets the better of you. And I think especially at a time when it’s very depressing. I mean, let’s just be honest. I think everyone was kind of going through their own existential crisis. No one’s used to being–at least not here, not in Canada–we’re not used to being out of control with some sort of larger existential threat that way.

And I think that when faced with that decision, we thought about the role that we wanted to play and how we could respond, after we do all the natural panic that happens. I think we go, we need to keep doing what we do, and we need to go where we’re strongest. We need to do the best thing we possibly can for our team, and try to provide, and try to do right by our clients, try to do right by our team. And that was just to keep going.

And in fact, rather than let off the gas and wait for the world to change, try to prepare for whatever this brave new world looks like, and umm, and lean into it with as much as we possibly could.

LINZ: Yeah. And I think, you know, we had we had a bit of time. We did have the buffer. I mean, the the US and the Canadian governments, they both stepped in and provided support. So once that once that happened, we realized the layoffs would be minimal, and then we’re sitting that we have the opportunity to sit back and go, OK, it is going to be a while for the market to pick back up. So, what are the things that we would not forgive ourselves for if you fast forward three or four months from now? Let’s take this time and let’s really think this through. So we had the opportunity to dream a little bit.

And in all fairness, I actually thought, I promised myself that I would fully embrace that dreaming opportunity. But in all the mourning of the pain, to be honest, the dreaming was few and far between. But it was still enough for us to find those moments to reconnect on, first of all, how far away are we from our why, and how do we speed that up? That was a huge thing that came out of our sessions.

How do we speed up the product that we’re building? And in all fairness, we were already on a track to launch that product before we went into COVID. But we had the time to actually focus on a little bit more because we weren’t getting pulled into the agency, so much so that it gave us space for that. And then it also gave us space to dream about what a new brand would be for launching Massive Labs, which is the the product division, and then that launching Cadence, which is the advertising and branded content.

Now, all of these things we’ve been doing under the umbrella of Massive the whole time. It’s not like we actually are building a new team for it yet. But, what it allowed us to do was think about the vision of where those departments will go. We created a brand for for Cadence. And I say “we”, it was literally like, Rene sitting back and just like riffing for a few weeks and thinking about, you know, like what it could be, and then falling in love with some of those ideas and then rolling with those. So it was it was it was a time to contemplate. It was a time to just think about where we wanted to go and then solidify that and then solidify that as an organization. Institutionalize it.

RENE: What was the word you used? Concretify!?

PREM: Concretize.

LINZ: Sounds like we’re conquering something, is that??

PREM: No, like concrete.

RENE: That’s not a real word, though.

PREM: It is! Sorry, I pushed us off track. But I think in the face of uncertainty, you can either be consumed by the fear or accept it and rise above it and kind of use it as propulsion. How did you personally find the ability to do that, because I know it’s it’s a tall order when everything shutting down to not just succumb to it. Where do you think you got that inspiration, that belief, that ability, that impetus, whatever you want to call it, to move forward

RENE: There are like multiple channels to this answer, right? You’ve got channel number one, which is, no idea what’s going to happen, you have an attachment to an outcome and you’re just terrified is going to get pulled away from you. It’s going to fall out from underneath you.

LINZ: The fear of losing, I guess is what you’re saying, of losing that momentum, was greater than the fear of what was going on outside.

RENE: Totally. Yeah, exactly. And then channel number two is this knowledge that we are incredibly fortunate enough to have to have the skill sets and the expertise to know how to build businesses. And when you really focus on that channel two, you’re kind of humbled and you’re thankful for what we can do and the expertise we have and what we’ve built and the team that we have. And you think we’re so fortunate. We’re really fortunate to be in a spot where, if this did take us out, we are in prime shape to rebuild. And not only that, to help other businesses rebuild at the same time. So I think it’s just about reframing that question.

If you feel like you have everything to lose and you’re scared of losing it, you’re not going to be able to make any decisions. But if you think about how much this situation provides an opportunity for you to live out you Why, then it’s just more of a reframing exercise. It becomes an opportunity.

PREM: And you mentioned that this gave you time to think about how close you are to your life and and maybe even re-examine some of the core principles that guide Massive. What are they today? What is what is the you know, I feel like the launch of the website is symbolic almost of Massive pulling off that, you know, unbandaging the tape after…

RENE: The coming out party.

PREM: Yeah, exactly. And so what is what is the reveal? What is what are we looking at right now?

RENE: Oh, that’s a good question. I think we’re looking at probably what’s always existed as a vapor, but didn’t really have probably solid form of clarity. And ideas, and cultural nuances and work and expertise that as a as a team of like Founders used to just exist among very few, but has been taken and carried further than we could have ever taken it by the team that we have around us.

And it’s become something so much more. And I think this next iteration of Massive is really about that is really about those underlying characteristics that I think we believed in from the start. But now they have legs. And I mean, Prem, you’re a perfect example of this. You emulate so many characteristics that we want to perpetuate throughout, and then you do that on your own. You carry that forward, and you’re one of 18.

PREM: You can’t tell because of my skin color. But I’m blushing.

RENE: It’s dark in here.

LINZ: It’s dark in here.

PREM: I want to I want to look back now. I mean, we’re still not through the weeds, but I would say massive is probably in much better shape than at the beginning of March. Is there anything that you regret about the past six to eight months?

LINZ: That’s a really good question. I wish I could have compartmentalize my emotions even more. And I don’t mean bottle them up. I just mean I remember thinking back and getting this little piece of advice to myself, like saying I have the two voices inside and you’re just like one voice is like, OK, everything’s falling apart. We’re fucked. Then the other voice is like, no, you just wait, watch how it all unfolds, Linz. It’s going to be OK. Keep marching forward. Keep dreaming. And that voice was so strong and I followed it. But in my heart I felt so sad. I felt so sad for, for just the people that were hurting around the world for how scared everyone was. I mean, we’re in Gastown, our office is in Gastown, which is this beautiful, vibrant area in Vancouver. But it’s also a really edgy area.

Like, there are so many different groups of people that live here. And when COVID hit, it was it was quite edgy. You just felt that you felt that heaviness all the time. I felt the heaviness of whether or not we were going to be able to keep our team. It broke my heart. I felt like I had let them all down. And I think that all of those pieces weighed on me so much. And I, I, I wish I was stronger in those moments to have not had that weight as much, to have foreseen that we were actually going to be able to propel forward and actually do what we’ve done. Because, I would probably have been like, don’t even feel the weight. But I would have I would have been a little bit lighter.

That’s not to say too, though, maybe I wouldn’t have been because there are so many people that are less fortunate, that are hurting more, and I, and I do feel that.

PREM: Not to tell you what to regret.

RENE: I’ve got a list I got.

LINZ: Yes, sir, I’ll take it. I love learning.

PREM: I think what you described, though, is such a core component of why Massive was able to pull through. And the ethos that you guys carry in the organization and that disseminates throughout is just that heart. I mean, it’s not all think you think. It’s not all strategy. It’s not all money. It’s like a genuine concern and care and feeling and vulnerability that really makes this place shine. So I would say don’t regret it, because I think that’s such a core part of why this is so successful.

LINZ: Sometimes it hurts to be vulnerable, Prem.

PREM: It does. It really does. It really does know. It’s so true. I mean, I wish no one had to go through it, but if we had to, I think being able to understand others pain and feel it and just sit with it for a bit is something that is a pretty rare skill and ability.

LINZ: And through that pain we get stronger.

RENE: I think Linz touched on a lot of it. You know, the regret thing, you go back in time and you look at the inputs you add, and without the benefit of hindsight, you’d probably end up doing the same thing over again because you’re dealing with it the best you can at the time. I mean, I’ve got things like, OK, I should have amped up my self care routine when the outside pressure of the world comes up. I really probably should have spent more time taking care of myself, like going to the gym, doing small things right.  We have a saying “everything all the time”. And I think that as much as you do in these moments, you end up doing triage.

But ironically enough, you can show up with so much more thoughtfulness and intentionality, or intention, rather, when you’re doing the small things and you’re balanced.

PREM: So then let’s flip that question on its head maybe and ask what is one thing that you’re most proud about in the last six to eight months?

RENE: Oh, can we take credit for the team?

LINZ: That’s I don’t know. Think I mean, it’s tricky. I don’t know. I guess you could be proud of it. I’m excited. I’m excited for the team.

RENE: You know what I am proud of? I’m proud of the culture. I think that as much as I’m proud of it, I’m humbled by it and I’m thankful because it’s owned by everyone. But I do think that’s the reason that we’re we’re still kicking right now. I think that’s the reason that we still are able to produce the kind of work we do and that people are still happy to come to work remotely or otherwise. I think it’s we’ve worked really hard to instil this in.

Every single one of our team members have shown up through to work through it and chose to be positive in the face of all this. Yeah. Shit-storm.

PREM: Where do you see Massive in the next five years?

LINZ: Mm hmm. Well, I think… Let’s introduce the concept of urgency of purpose, because the urgency of purpose leads to. That why and where we want to be in five years, and I think that the why is about supporting the change makers and the rebels who have the ability, who have the ideas that can actually change the world, but not just have the idea actually have the foundational skill set to do that and need someone like us to get behind them, to amplify them, to tell their story and to strengthen their message in the world. And urgency of purpose has made us realize that it’s taking us too long to get to those people, it’s taking us far too long on it.

RENE: I want to answer, but in the context of your original question, which was where do we want to be in five years. It isn’t is less about the size. It’s less about revenue. It’s definitely more in line with holding on to and continuing to attract the right type of team and the right type of clients that are moving towards our organization Why. I think, you know, we tell people when they when they start at Massive–that exact question is one that we get in interviews a lot. And we say that Massive is a bit of an experiment, kind of like democracy. We first ask the question, first Who, then the What then How.

The culture we’re building may not be able to scale. We’re going to see if it can. And if it can’t, then we’ll stop at a certain number. But regardless of what that number is, it’s more about the work that we’re doing and the alignment of the work than it is about our revenue.

LINZ: And it does feel good to go up and number, like it feels good to grow. It feels good to have a bigger team and more diverse skill set, but not at the cost, but not at the cost of our culture. We won’t sacrifice that.

RENE: Five years from now, organizations are coming to us because they know that we are going to help their world changing ideas and technologies have legs and we’re going to take them from being in a commoditized space to being the industry leaders and to be effecting a change in culture.

PREM: I want to close out by asking you guys what you want. You know, this is this is a sort of coming out for massive. What do you want the world to know about Massive? What do you want people to take away from this?

RENE: Oh, I don’t know if we have a big announcement. I think it’s just, um, hey, we’re here to make really cool shit that’s going to have a positive impact on the world. You can do business, you can be profitable, and you can have a net positive effect. And for organizations that are looking to do that really efficiently and make a splash, and have fun while you’re doing it and clarify the messaging, that’s what we’re doing. We’d love to work with you.

PREM: Great. Anybody listening out there, you can contact us on our website. There you are. Exactly. Well, thank you so much. Oh, sorry.

LINZ: I was like, I just give you Renee’s phone number. So do I mean, thank you.

PREM: Thank you for chatting about Massive in its future. And I think we’re all excited to see where it’s going to go next.

RENE: One team, one dream, one team, one dream.

LINZ: Oh, boy, oh, boy. Guys.

PRENE: Thank you for doing this.

PREM: For more information, you can check out our brand new website at and be sure to follow us on Instagram at @EngageMassive. We’ll be doing more content like this soon. So check back for more blogs, podcasts and other great things to read. See you soon.